Re: To the Armchair Directors

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote:
> To paraphrase: Users should not bother developers with comments on
> FreeBSD development. Users don't deserve to be heard and developers
> don't need the comments anyway.  Users who violate this rule should be
> given a good flaming about pissing off programmers and making unworthy
> demands and with a patronizing analogy about diners and chefs.
> 
> I'm sure we all got HIS point, but you seem to have missed MY points
> -- that this is a piss-poor way to deal with users and the situation
> should (sic) be improved in several ways:

If you feel that I missed your points -- which is what I was really
*trying* to address, even if my fingers didn't say so -- I apologize.
That what specifically why I sent that email.

> First, users should be expected to want to voice their opinions about
> FreeBSD development and should be given a FreeBSD forum in which to
> do so.  (I've seen this same situation even on chat_at_.)

Well, chat_at_ is an anything-goes zone that IMHO is an much less
friendly place than even -current.  So I wouldn't recommend that.
Have you tried -hacker and if so, what were your results there?
(I subscribe to neither).

> Second, if freebsd-current isn't the forum, the list's documentation
> should say so in a polite but clear manner

Perhaps, indeed, the charter should be amended to restrict it to
very specific discussion, rather than more general ones.

> Third, developers should (sic) not flame users for trying to help,
> even if they are no help; it does more harm than good.  The non-help
> should just be ignored or a polite reference to the list docs should
> be sent to the offender (only).

I have absolutely no argument with this.  In fact, I have been known
to take developers to task for this very thing -- but generally in
private email, under the theory of "praise in public, criticize in
private".  On occasion, out of anger, I'll criticize another
developer in public -- and whenever I do it, if I don't cancel the
posting in time, then I myself just become a further part of the
overall problem, which is not what I want.

At the risk of repeating myself, the reason why I replied to your
posting, as well as any number of postings in the most-recent
'future of FreeBSD' thread, is an attempt to bridge this user
vs. developer gap.  It's very frustrating to attempt to do that,
and then read:

> (And I could expand on [these reasons] to explain why I've
> pretty-much stopped even bothering developers with what they
> claim to want, here and in the PR database.

If you don't want to use these two options -- especially the
latter -- then what would you suggest as an approriate way?
I am not asking to bait you: I really have no clue how to
resolve this problem from here.

Perhaps we really do need some separate list such as
freebsd-users or something similar.  What would you suggest
for its charter?  How can your concerns, and those of others,
best be addressed?

mcl