Re: Call for testing: emu10kx driver for Creative sound cards

Warner Losh wrote:
> From: Scott Long <scottl_at_samsco.org>
> Subject: Re: Call for testing: emu10kx driver for Creative sound cards
> Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:08:15 -0600
> 
> 
>>Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote:
>>
>>>Alexander Leidinger <Alexander_at_Leidinger.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Quoting des_at_des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) (Tue, 23 May 2006 14:26:58 +0200):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yuriy Tsibizov <Yuriy.Tsibizov_at_gfk.ru> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Complete mixer support. Some controls that can't fit into OSS
>>>>>>mixer are available as sysctl under debug.emu10kxX.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is not the correct place for it.  Please use the device's sysctl
>>>>>context (obtained with device_get_sysctl_ctx())
>>>>
>>>>This was based upon a suggestion by me. We want to get rid of most
>>>>sound related syscalls (at least those which belong into the realm of
>>>>the user, and not into the realm of the administrator). Until we have
>>>>an application and an interface, we have to life with the sysctls, but
>>>>to let the users know that this is not an interface but a temporary
>>>>workaround, it's put into the debug MIB. I hope we will not ship
>>>>7.0-RELEASE with any such sysctl (any help appreciated).
>>>
>>>
>>>Regardless, device-specific sysctl knobs belong in the individual
>>>device's sysctl context, which automatically places them in the
>>>correct location in the dev tree and automatically destroys them when
>>>the device is destroyed.  Please do not create further precedent for
>>>breaking this rule, no matter how good your intentions.
>>>
>>>DES
>>
>>The problem is that Alexander wants these sysctls to only be temporary.
>>Recall that big thread from a month or two ago about treating sysctls
>>as an API, and how there was heavy disagreement over how to define
>>"stable" sysctls that apps could depend on?  If a temporary set of 
>>sysctls get put under the dev tree, then it risks becoming permanent,
>>which is not what Alexander wants.  So, either we need to decide what
>>parts of the sysctl to define as stable, like I asked for in the 
>>previous thread, or we need to pretend that it's not a problem that we
>>should address, and let you and Alexander continue to argue over the
>>'correct place'.
> 
> 
> Then put them under the right place, but create a subtree that's "tmp"
> 
> In general, drivers should avoid using the debug.* space.
> 
> Warner

But that's the problem.  You just announced a rule that is in conflict
with rules that others have announced.  All I asked for was for the 
rules to be decided on and published, and I got pushback from people
who said either that all sysctls are part of the API, or that no rules
should exist and that everyone should just use careful judgement, so
long as their judgement is correct.  Both of these stances are absurd.

Scott