Re: New-bus unit wiring via hints..

> From: Marcel Moolenaar <xcllnt_at_mac.com>
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:57:25 -0700
> 
> 
> On Oct 27, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote:
> 
> >> I'm not mandating anything. I'm merely pointing out how
> >> reality has changed and that it's important to adapt,
> >> adopt and improve...
> >
> > "Reality has changed"? Yes, it has, at least a bit, but not to the
> > point where we want to confuse serial ports.
> 
> Are you saying that "we" should accept reality's change
> only for as far as it doesn't confuse "us" ???

Just in case I don't understand the issue, feel free to correct me, but
it sounds like you are saying that there will not be a clear link
between the serial port (sio) number and the port marked '1' on most
systems.  If I am wrong about this, please tell me and I climb back
under my rock.

If there is not a good reason or benefit and it the change is accommodated
in some realistic manner without serious penalty. Confusing "us" is far
less significant than confusing lots of users.

> > If I update my BIOS, the port marked '1' on the back of my system  
> > should
> > not abruptly change from sio0 to sio1.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > In my case, I am only talking to a data logger and not actually
> > controlling something, but I should not have to worry about having  
> > a port
> > name change or finding that _UID1 was no longer the same device if I
> > move to a new mother board.
> 
> That's unrealistic. If you change the underlying hardware
> configuration you cannot expect that it doesn't have some
> sort of effect on the system. Wiring is about making that
> effect as small as possible, not about having FreeBSD do
> its own thing with disregard of the hardware.

If I really change the configuration, then I should expect changes in
operation. But upgrading to a new system or motherboard where the port
marked '1' is suddenly not sio0 is not a configuration change, in my
view. The new system has, to the typical user's eyes, the same
configuration. 

This gets even worse in some cases. For example, many newer mobos have a
single serial connector on the back and another available only as a
header connector on the board. (I have a lot of such systems scattered
all over the country.) I would be extremely upset if the '1' port,
configured as the console was to become sio1 and I could not access the
system from the terminal server. I suspect I could recover from this
remotely as long as I can get to the BIOS setup screen, but I'd be
really annoyed if I had to fly across the country to fix this. (OK. I
probably could pay for remote hands to take care of it.)

> > (Yes, I had been working with computers for several years
> > before then and I suspect many of the others in this discussion had
> > been, too.) Please don't break it! Talk about POLA!
> 
> I'm very much insensitive to people arguing with nothing
> more than how things used to be in the distant past.
> It only means they have been standing still for as long
> as that and have become inflexible and intolerant.
> Having those people use POLA is a joke because it's really
> their own POLA that's at stake and given that it's coming
> from someone who isn't living in the present, really means
> very very little looking forward.
> 
> I've argued that hints isn't the right tool to achieve
> wiring. Keep the discussion on topic.

Yes, it is possible that I am off-target in my understanding of this. If
so, I apologize. 

I am not sure hints is the right place for this, but I do think that any
replacement must not break basic assumptions people make about systems.
-- 
R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer
Energy Sciences Network (ESnet)
Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab)
E-mail: oberman_at_es.net			Phone: +1 510 486-8634
Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4  EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751