Re: RELEASE discs & ISO images (for future)

Hi Ken Smith! 

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:16:57 -0400; Ken Smith wrote about 'Re: RELEASE discs & ISO images (for future)':


>> I currently have no 7.0 ISOs to look at (and ftp.freebsd.org contains jus=
> t
>> symlink to all available packages, not only disc1). But I remember perl,
>> linux and xorg on the disc1 from 6.2 times, yes. And actually the most ne=
> eded
>> things are just perl and linux ABI, not heavy Xorg which can be moved to
>> disc2 - it=20

> Disc1 contains all the packages necessary to get to the "Would you like
> to browse the pre-built packages" menu in sysinstall without needing to
> switch discs (which is desirable for novices as well as being able to
> complete that portion, not bother selecting packages in the menu, and
> thus not need disc2/disc3). 

That's only list of them, not actual packages, right?

>  That includes xorg because it's one of the
> things that can be chosen in the "Software Distributions" section.  I'm
> planning to change that with 8.0, no longer offering to have anything
> that's not part of the baseline system installed until you get to the
> "Would you like to ..." menu.  

Good.

> That will reinforce to people that that
> stuff really is packages/ports and it will make things like the monthly
> snapshots less of a hack (I don't include any packages on those so you
> get odd results if you select "All" in the Software Distributions menu
> for example...).  

Also good.

> But I didn't have a chance to get that stuff done for 7.0.

And what for 7.1 and 6.4 ?

>>> The question is:  What does the majority of users want?
>>=20
>> Attraction. Ability to say "Wow! Their CD is SO handy, many
>> features on just one disk". Don't forget about advocacy and
>> opinionating new users.
> In my opinion the above setup (being able to make any of the selections
> we offer in the "Distributions" section and complete an install without
> needing to switch discs {provided you opt out of selecting packages from
> the packages menu}) is what benefits the most users.  

Yes, but moving xorg to disc2 will help to reduce disk switching, isn't it?

> I could be wrong
> but this is one of those things that it's impossible to satisfy everyone
> all the time so a decision needed to be made and that was it.  

Sure, but we can tune it as much as we can. Ability to use disc1 for most needs
of both novice users and experienced corporate admins is good.

> I *hope*
> I can merge the livefs stuff back in to disc1 by eliminating Xorg from
> the "Distributions" section (and the offer to install Linux as a
> separate thing - let them select that from packages as well). But that
> just wasn't possible for 7.0.  

Umm, but isn't that hacky switch the thing which can reduce disk switching?
Such as, you are always installing Perl and Linux before packages, and when
you get to the packages menu, you don't need to insert disc2 first, install
something, then another which requires Perl and Linux as dependency, then
switch to disc1 to install them, then to disc2 to continue?

> We'll see if it can happen for 8.0 (and
> as pointed out in this thread the base system seems to continue to grow
> so we'll see :-).

That's when geom_ugz can do it's job.

>> I've suggested above - just Xorg can be moved, perl and linux ABI are not
>> so big.

> That causes even more disc shuffling pain than we have now.  Disc1
> currently contains both Gnome and KDE.  Trying to move Xorg to disc1
> means one of them needs to be moved to another disc, the three won't
> fit.  

Disc1 ? May be you've meant disc2 ?

> And so many packages are intertwined among those three things the
> disc switching becomes way worse.  As things stand now if you select
> "All" in the software distributions section everything from disc1 will
> wind up being installed before you get to the Packages selection menu so
> it will never ask for disc1 again.  

Not tried it with 7.0, but 5.4 and 6.2 caused some switching.

> If you then just select Gnome or KDE
> disc2 goes in and it never asks for disc3.  However if you select
> anything more than Gnome or KDE things go downhill fast.  But nowhere
> near as fast as if all of either Gnome or KDE were not on disc1.
> Yes, we need to make sysinstall smarter about the order it installs
> stuff in.  But I spent some time fiddling with the current layout given
> what I had to work with as far as meta package sizes and ISO image sizes
> go and this wound up being the least painful (note I don't claim
> painless).

Yes, but KDE and Gnome and Xorg grow with time, too. So, even without this
changes, eventually all three will not fit to single disc2.

> What I hope to shoot for with 8.0 is a CD-sized thing named "disc1" that
> is much like the monthly snapshots - no packages at all on it.  If
> possible at the point we're near 8.0's release given sizes livefs will
> be merged back onto it.  I'll have trimmed out the stuff sysinstall
> offers to do before reaching the "Would you like to browse pre-built
> packages?" menu so you don't get odd failures if you select
> something-or-other and no pre-built packages are available at all. 

Will be good.

> And in addition to that CD-sized "disc1" we'll have a DVD-sized thing
> that includes everything on disc1 plus some set of pre-built packages.

Oh, that's long awaited. Much more packages than on 3 CDs :)

-- 
WBR, Vadim Goncharov. ICQ#166852181       mailto:vadim_nuclight_at_mail.ru
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