Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base

On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:05:59 -0400
Kris Moore <kris_at_ixsystems.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:55 AM Emmanuel Vadot <manu_at_bidouilliste.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:25:05 -0400
> > Kris Moore <kris_at_ixsystems.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:12 AM Emmanuel Vadot <manu_at_bidouilliste.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >  Hi Kris,
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:52:21 -0400
> > > > <kris_at_ixsystems.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > FreeBSD Community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm pleased to announce a CFT for builds of FreeBSD 12-stable and
> > > > 13-current
> > > > > using "TrueOS-inspired" packaged base. These are stock FreeBSD images
> > > > which
> > > > > will allow users to perform all updating via the 'pkg' command
> > directly.
> > > > > Rather than trying to answer all questions in this announcement,
> > we've
> > > > > created a FAQ page with more details. Please refer to this page, and
> > let
> > > > us
> > > > > know if you have additional questions that we can include on that
> > page
> > > > going
> > > > > forward.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >  While I appreciate the effort I have some doubt about your
> > > > "re-implementation" of pkgbase. I don't see any improvement compared to
> > > > what is in base currently, I even see downside of your implementation.
> > > >
> > > >  - How do you plan with the need of updating kernel first, reboot and
> > > > updating the rest of the userland after ? (Needed for major and minor
> > > > upgrade, 12.0 to 12.1 for example, and simple update in -STABLE and
> > > > -HEAD branch). This is still a problem with the base pkgbase.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We've written our own tool "sysutils/sysup" in GO which handles this. It
> > > performs updates using Boot-Environments to ensure that kernel/world are
> > > updated at same time.
> > >
> >
> >  Which could never be imported into FreeBSD.
> >
> 
> Not suggesting it should be. Just information on how we solved that problem
> in our own appliance / platforms. For FreeBSD it would need some tooling
> still to handle this style of updating, regardless of which pkg base is
> used.
> 
> And for what it's worth, FreeBSD is all the poorer for not being able to
> bring modern language based tools into the base. Personally I'm hoping the
> shift to base-packages makes this a moot point since the idea of 'what is
> base' can be diluted to just a manifest of what gets installed out of box.
> Just my 2C on the matter though :)
> 
> 
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >  - This is even worse because you are using the same repository for
> > > > base and pkg so if a user pkg update and both kernel and pkg(8) needs
> > > > to be updated and pkg use a new syscall or capsicum thing it will be
> > > > updated first and couldn't proceed with the rest of the update (this is
> > > > a supposition, I haven't personally tested).
> > > >
> > >
> > > See above.
> >
> 
> You can selectively update os/kernel and reboot before doing rest.
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > >  - It seems that multiple kernels isn't supported in your
> > > > implementation, this is already supported in pkgbase but still need
> > > > some love. This is an important point as it will allow user to choose
> > > > easily the kernel that they want to use and will also allow us
> > > > developper to push kernels with new features to help testing.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Incorrect, on the 13-CURRENT build if you install kernel-debug, you'll
> > get
> > > the Witness-enabled kernel installed alongside non-debugging one.
> >
> >  Mhm no, the kernel-debug packages only add the debug file
> > in /usr/lib/debug/boot/
> >  I'm talking about installing multiple kernels in //
> > (i.e. /boot/kernel.GENERIC /boot/kernel.MYFEATUREIWANTTOTEST) like
> > describe here :
> >
> > https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase#Project_goals_and_additional_unresolved_issues
> > in the "How to handle /boot/kernel and /boot/kernel.$KERNCONF" point.
> >
> >
> Incorrect, os/kernel-debug installs /boot/kernel-debug which is (on
> 13-CURRENT) the Witness enabled kernel. os/kernel-debug-symbols are the
> /usr/lib/debug bits.

 I only see kernel-20190420203550_1.txz and
kernel-debug-20190420203550.txz in
https://pkg.trueos.org/pkg/freebsd-pkgbase/FreeBSD%3A13%3Aamd64/latest/All/
and kernel-debug only contain the debug files.
 If I'm not looking in the right directory please correct me.

> 
> >
> > > >
> > > >  I think that the only advantage that your solution offers is that if
> > > > we remove a componant of base (rcmds for example in 12-CURRENT) those
> > > > files would be removed as they are in the userland-base package while
> > > > for pkgbase the FreeBSD-rcmd package will be deleted in the repo and
> > > > will not be deleted in the user computer.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Correct, this is one of the things which prompted us to go this
> > direction.
> > > Being able to handle crazy mixed WITH/WITHOUT flags was important to us,
> > > current pkg base did not handle that so gracefully.
> >
> >  Can you give me more info on this ? What where the WITH/WITHOUT flags
> > that causes problems ?
> >
> 
> 
> I may have to pick Miwi's brain on this, but I believe some of the issues
> we saw were when introducing flags such as WITHOUT_RADIUS. Additionally
> there is a runtime problem to solve. I.E. if you change flags mid-stream,
> and user updates, there was no clean way on pkg-side to remove those
> already installed granular packages. Not without external tooling anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > --
> > Emmanuel Vadot <manu_at_bidouilliste.com> <manu_at_freebsd.org>
> >
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-- 
Emmanuel Vadot <manu_at_bidouilliste.com> <manu_at_freebsd.org>