RE: The case for FreeBSD

Working for a large hosting company, one of the things we enjoy about FBSD
is that all we need to install/fix a system is three floppy disks (two on a
4.X system).  Most of our servers do not have CD-ROMs, nor would they, as it
is an added expense to the servers that would rarely be used.

The current sysinstall allows us to script an install of FBSD to the point
where all we have to do is enter an admin password and IP/Hostname, and the
rest is done in the background.

I can understand how having sysinstall revamped to something more along the
lines of an installer from one of the 'fancier' distros of Linux (Redhat,
Mandrake, etc.) in order to get FBSD 'out to the masses;, but I don't think
that is the purpose behind this OS.  I see this OS as a stable incarnation
of UNIX, tried and true, made for admins.  We understand that and that is
why we use it as one of our default OS's (Our others are Debian and Slack,
both of which don't have pretty installers either.)

Just my two cents.

--Seth Kingry, NatNet--



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-current_at_freebsd.org
[mailto:owner-freebsd-current_at_freebsd.org] On Behalf Of
supraexpress_at_globaleyes.net
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 10:49 PM
To: freebsd-current_at_freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The case for FreeBSD

One of the main "stumbling blocks" to using FreeBSD is the installation
process. I have had "lots of fun" (not!) with NetBSD's
line-mode/shell-script "installer" and confusing companion installation
instructions, in the past; I only tried OpenBSD once and don't remember
anything about its installation process, but I seem to recall that it was
similar to NetBSD's; FreeBSD's 'DOS-like menu' system is a travisty and IS
PROBABLY THE ONE THING THAT TURNS OFF MORE PROSPECTIVE FBSD USERS THAN
ANYTHING ELSE - I know - I have heard!

Besides, it is REALLY EASY to get lost in the FBSD installer "menu system",
and not that hard to get caught in a "control loop"; this is not to say that
the current FBSD installer is a piece of junk - I give kudos to its
developers, but IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON, and this is the ONE thing that gets
compared to with Linux "installers" as well as Winchoke, probably more than
anything else, so if FreeBSD is going to be more appealing to "the masses",
it needs a completely new installation process (note: I don't really care
for Solaris' "wizard process" - though it is not TOO bad, and I am not
trying to advocate a "wizard process" that mirrors others).

I offer the following suggestions for cogitation and realize that some of MY
choices may not be "the best", but here goes anyhow:

a) redesign the "installer" as a graphical menu system with pull-down
   options, organized as a linear heirarchy where there is NO possibility
   of getting lost or of winding up in a "control loop", and the progression
   is clearly visible; real graphical images of major processes/steps and
   "systems/major applications" should be provided; THIS installer should
   begin with THREE, and only THREE options: "user workstation",
   "server", or "(expert) choice of workstation/server setups"


b) design an "installation wizard", in line with contemporary systems,
   that does nothing but install a "canned workstation environment" based on
   OpenOffice plus Gnome (or KDE) - that's IT - NOTHING ELSE; Make sure
   that a more modern graphical menu is used where sample images of Gnome
   (or KDE) are presented, and do NOT install the entire Gnome (or KDE)
   "suite"; THIS will appeal to the MILLIONS who have been brainwashed by
   Redmond (or Apple?) into believing that there is only ONE "computing
   environment" of any use or interest, AND IT WILL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY
   WANT, even if it IS FreeBSD; this would be like a pseudo-Mac-X
(whatever);
   this will also appeal to those who don't really care about Unix or
   FreeBSD as a "server", but really want a "desktop environment"
   
   a basic client-only, outbound-only-allowing firewall MUST BE
   installed and activated (which will require some simple choices about
   DHCP or assigned, static IP addreses); "ports" could be included as
   an option, but would be better left to the "expert" wizard


c) design an "installation wizard" that installs a "server system with NO
   desktop installation" which provides some "canned" server "types" (such
as
   "mail server", "web server", ...) that choose the newest versions of
   server applications (such as Apache2 versus Apache1; PHP5 versus PHP4)
   as the "defaults", and pull-down menus for changing versions (such as
   one pull-down for PHP that lists all of the available PHP "main"
   packages, and possibly another pull-down that lists all of the available
   PHP "sub-packages"), or altering the application "mix"


d) design an "installation menu system" which provides ALL of the choices
   for ALL of the available functions and services in a well ordered,
   graphical, linear, hierarchy with sample images/snapshots and pull-down
   menus to make choices easier to make, without having to go into and out
   of many levels as the current installer does


It would probably help if a "special design team" (project) were created for
this, with calls to anyone/everyone to join in, unless - of course - that
there just so happens to be a group of talented people who WANT to do all of
this on their own ;)


If some truly talented and adventurous people were to look at the
installation process as an adventure in graphical layers where mousing over
a box or image would open up a new sub-layer (to the side, or even BETTER,
to wherever the user places their mouse or clicks on the background, or
shouts at the monitor (we REALLY need to get some of the Hitchhiker's Guide
into this process!), where small graphical images of options or related
packages could be displayed so that the "installer" acted like a well
designed "flowing image overlay system", THEN the FreeBSD installation
process would be dynamite - literally!

There are "circular menus" (ala one Firebird extension), layered pie-chart
diagrams of the filesystem with size information (such as KDE's "filelight")
where mousing over one of the concentric circles pops up an "info box",
while clicking on one of them traverses down the filesystem path and creates
a new set of concentric circles of lower level directories, and the
exhilarating 3D-Desktop as examples of unique, "futuristic", artistic, free
flowing graphical "systems" that could lead to interesting ideas for the
above mentioned "graphical installation system".

Granted, there are MANY, MANY issues to be worked out, and some of these
suggestions will have to be modified - of course. There might even need to
be a two-tiered system where the first tier could be a basic graphical
system that doesn't need special graphics cards to perform, and the second
tier that could install X, or something close enough, and then provide the
full blown "graphical installation" system. If there are enough drivers
available to the "installation system" to determine enough about a system
"monitor", then hopefully this could be an automated facility (eg; install a
minimal X-system with just enough to do the necessary graphics, and later
install the entire X-system where needed).

OK - let the "flame wars" begin. Whatever comes out of this, the FreeBSD
"installer" badly needs a facelift.
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