Re: Sysinstall is still inadequate after all of these years

I complete what Curtis wrote...

How many times do you have to install a BSD system ??? even in case of 
hell, you can still remove every ports/ package, juste leaving the CSH 
and kernel layer, then install what you need again... try to remove the 
"glibc" package from Linux (an Howto exists), and enjoy....

Compared to Windows / Linux (RedHat or Suse distributions), BSD still 
offers a way to finely tune your system depending on your needs, instead 
of putting gigabyte software in place, "just in case of", with tons of 
windows managers, productivity tools, etc...

BSD are still "harder" systems compared to other, but with more control 
on what happens....

In conclusion, I can agree you in that the "sysinstall" soft is a bit 
out-dated, but it respond on a need of a BSD philosophy: just installing 
a working operating system. All the later tasks have to be done by 
"hands". But that's exactly what I wanted when I replaced Windows / 
Debian  to FreeBSD: having a full control on my system.

So, just another useless contribution.....


Curtis Penner a écrit :
> Let us take this further.
>
> Let's compare BSD to the Linux install solutions.  Well, lets not, 
> Linux is so far ahead of BSD.  Linux understands the user.
>
> BSD has a better overall core OS then the other UNIX flavors.  The 
> size to capability is outstanding. Once you have the core OS on the 
> system it is rock steady and only getting better.  The documentation 
> is outstanding. It is what others should look to.
>
> So what is wrong?
>
> It doesn't have the native 3rd party applications. Why? Not enough 
> users. Why? Because it is hard to get what you want unless you are 
> tech savvy.
>
> When you do a system install it is like jumping back to the 80's.  The 
> front-end is like something from the DOS days.  You have to be tech 
> savvy to know what you want to do.  You have to search out all the 
> variations of the applications (tedious and unnecessary) to get a full 
> package -- Examples: Postgres, PHP, etc.  To add wireless (very common 
> these day), you better set aside as much time or more as doing the 
> initial install.
>
> Given that the system is rock solid, you think more people would 
> develop on it, at least secondarily.  But no.  Java - go fish.  All 
> the development environments and features that go with it (Eclipse, 
> NetBean, Hibernation, Sturts, and so forth) are painful to get.  You 
> feel like a rabbit jumping around, and then it most likely doesn't 
> work.  That is such a turn off.
>
> As for the installs, to get an idea of how to package an install, look 
> at the current install packages that are from the Linux side. You 
> don't have to copy, but emulate.  (Oh, the best out-of-the-box is Apple.)
>
> I have installed Linux, MacOS, HPUX, Solaris, Window (NT, XP, Vista), 
> and the BSDs, and I have found the BSDs to be so yesterday that there 
> is little in common with the rest.
>
> Porting, so that applications that matter go native, we need more 
> installs and more people on the systems.  That means more installs to 
> laptops. The installs have to be seamless and complete.  That mean 
> getting more Open Source people and companies to compile and 
> distribute BSD.
>
> I am looking forward to a time when installing BSD is point and click 
> with not much understanding of what is going on (unless I want to go 
> advance and do special custom work).
>
>
> -Curtis
>
>
> Rob Lytle wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My depressing analysis- YMMV. I've used FreeBSD since 1998.
>>
>> 1..Installing the packages off of the menu on the 3 CDROMs is an 
>> incredibly
>> tedious miserable process.  I had to switch out the CD's around 40 
>> times.
>> If you don't believe me, just mark a whole bunch of random packages 
>> after
>> obtaining the 7.0 release CD's, ad then install.  Its frustrating and 
>> almost
>> like Windows, except its a bit faster as replacing CD's is faster than
>> reboots.
>>
>> 2.  When installing any given package, if a dependency is already 
>> there ,
>> the  package aborts and then goes though some loop where you have to 
>> press
>> OK half a dozen times.  Thats insane.
>>
>> I think the CD switching problem would be to install all the packages at
>> once from CD1, then CD2, then CD3.  As for the second case, I don't know
>> enough about the infrastructure to suggest any thing except to perhaps
>> comment that code in its entirety or put in  switch to bypass already
>> installed dependencies.
>>
>> I wish I knew more about  your infrastructure to fix this myself.  Is it
>> written in Python?  Thats the only language I'm not so rusty at.  I've
>> programmed in 5 languages, but that was long ago.  I'm old.  But 
>> someone who
>> knows the system could probably fix it fast.  I think this is such an
>> inherent infrastructure problem that has existed so long that a bug 
>> report
>> would be futile.
>>
>> Food for thought.  Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>
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