Re: request: LOADER_ZFS_SUPPORT

2009/11/18 Dan Naumov <dan.naumov_at_gmail.com>

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Holger Kipp <hk_at_alogis.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 04:25:09PM +0200, Dan Naumov wrote:
> >> 2009/11/18 O. Hartmann <ohartman_at_zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
> >> > Gary Jennejohn wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:44:12 +0200
> >> >> Dan Naumov <dan.naumov_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>> WHy not just build from source?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Because expecting users to build from source to install or update
> >> >>> their systems in the year 2009 is an outdated concept, this is why
> we
> >> >>> have freebsd-update in the first place.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> This is such a load of BS I could fertilize 100 acres with it.
> >> >>
> >> >> In this day of inexpensive computers with fast mulit-core CPUs and
> >> >> gigabytes of memory this argument is completely lame.
> >> >>
> >> >> Fifteen years ago I would have agreed, because it took days to build
> >> >> world and the kernel.  Been there, done that.
> >> >>
> >> >> ---
> >> >> Gary Jennejohn
> >> >
> >> > Been there, did it, too.
> >> >
> >> > Fools, conceptually compromised by Microsofts closed-binary-strategy,
> often
> >> > complain about 'why compiling, it is an outdated concept ...'. It is,
> simply
> >> > in my opinion, a helpless selfdefense: they do not understand much
> about
> >> > operating systems (me, too) and never try to understand the concept
> behind
> >> > (me not). But today, having sophisticated binary update facilities, it
> seems
> >> > to speed up a worse development: many companies save the
> computer-scientist
> >> > to maintain their stuff - because they have a bunch of cheap fools
> >> > 'fertilizing the acres of foolsness' and pretending being the master
> of the
> >> > puppets by hitting an 'update-key' and everythings works magically ...
> >>
> >> This is unreasonable elitism. Having to jump through hoops, manually
> >
> > Ah no. If someone needs a precompiled system with everything, he can go
> > and use Windows or Linux. I prefer using *BSD _because_ I can compile
> > everything from scratch. And the build-system usually works much better
> > than many 'pre-compiled' binary systems on the market.
>
> "Can" and "have to" are 2 very different things.
>
> >> adjust Makefiles and spend time compiling just to apply a system
> >> update does NOT make you a "guru". It makes you waste time that could
> >> be better spent elsewhere.
> >
> > Usually adjusting Makefiles is not necessary, because the defaults are
> fine
> > for most users. If you _need_ to adjust Makefiles, then a precompiled
> solution
> > is definitely not suited to your needs. Trust me on that ;-)
>
> Or maybe the defaults are suboptimal?
>
>
> - Sincerely,
> Dan Naumov
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if you want upgrades to be more reliable you should really do it from
source. Binary updates are fine however they have nowhere near as much run
time on them than source updates. This is why I have always used source and
always will.

The speed argument isn't that valid either, as that is just down to not
being organised. I have a build server at work as do i at home, and this
builds a new world every night, so I always have one waiting for me to
install. If I need to make a small adjustment to compile options I user the
DNCLEAN options to speed things up. I also have the option of a full
reinstall the next day as well if i need to.

I do agree about sysinstall though in that its well outdated. It would be
much better to have a livecd installer like opensolaris or ubuntu for
novices. A fully functional (geom, zfs etc) install script language as well
would be good as well for automated installations, but I can live without
that.

The biggest issue I have with the bsd loader is that you cant (as far as i
can tell) hang it off the back of a pxe grub menu, making it difficult to
build a heterogeneous jumpstart environment