Re: x.0 RELASE isn't for production.

2011/10/14 David Wolfskill <david_at_catwhisker.org>

> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:55:28AM +0400, Pavel Timofeev wrote:
> > That's what most people think.
>
> Could be.  But to the extent that it's true, I have no reason to believe
> that it's a perspective that is held uniquely (or even principally) about
> FreeBSD.
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I would like to say that most freebsd users don't try CURRENT, but try
> > BETAs-x, RCs-x.
>
> Errr... I'll suggest that most folks who posit what "most folks" do
> don't actually determine this empirically.  Some of them probably engage
> in something called "projection" (in lieu of performing appropriate
> polling, for example).
>
Ok, for example, more emails and bug reports appears in mailing lists after
CURRENT stabilization.


>
> > Why? Because most users don't like compile new kernel and world. It's
> > tediously.
>
> Errr...  So what?  Doing it doesn't prevent one from doing other things
> (within reason), and the process gets done when it's done.  And it's the
> computer doing the tedious stuff -- which is something at which they
> excel.
>
> I'm in the habit of tracking stable/8, stable/9, and head on a daily
> basis on a personal "build machine" and on my laptop.  I also update all
> of the installed ports on each machine daily.
>
It's only you. Good habbit. But this isn't often, for example, my colleagues
and friends don't track it.
They are just users (consumers).


>
> I don't expect "most" folks to do that; actually, I don't expect anyone
> else to do (precisely) that.
>
Right.


> > You need to download a CURRENT snapshot iso, to install, csup, and then
> to
> > build kernel and world.
>
> Really?  I don't think I've ever used a snapshot.  I do maintain a
> private mirror of the FreeBSD CVS & SVN repositories (and mirror those
> to my laptop).  I find the "tracking" process fairly straightforward,
> and only rarely surprising (though usually, if it is "surprising," it's
> not in an especially "good" way -- but then I'm occasionally able to
> help at least provide some encouragement to fix the cause of the
> surprise).
>
It's funny =). Not everyone maintains its mirrors.
For example, I didn't use my CURRENT (previously installed to VM) about 4
months. And now I want to try new CURRENT. What I need to do? Csup and
build? No, downloading and installing fresh snapshot would be more quickly.
There is changes in bsdinstall while BETA-3 and if I want to test it what i
need to do?


>
> > FreeBSD project builds CURRENT snapshot every month, but not always. And
> > this volatility is bad.
> > Month is a big period. Very big, imo. For example, 10 day period would be
> > great!
>
> If you want finer-grained updates, one way is to use the source.  The
> project still maintains the SVN-to-CVS exporting process, and a network
> of public CVS mirrors around the planet.  The cvs program is in the
> FreeBSD base system.  You have the resources necessary to do this, if
> you want to do so.
>
See above


>
> > And when BETA/RC time comes users rush like mad to test it. And they find
> > errors and bugs. Writing PR, emails and even !patches!
>
> There are certainly some folks whose first exposure to a new release is
> in the later stages of the release process.  Changing parameters (such
> as the duration of the process) may affect the population distribution
> some, but it won't change the fact that there are some folks who will
> not test early enough to raise some valid objections or concerns in
> sufficient time to have them addressed in a completely satisfactory
> manner prior to the release.  This is something that appears to involve
> rather deep-sewated aspects of human nature, and it is not in the power
> of any organization to prevent it.  The best anyone (or any group) can
> do is find ways to mitigate it, and learn to move on.

It's also correctly.


>

> But the lion's share of these patches doesn't get into the coming BETA or
> RC.
> > Maintainers say "I don't have time [to test it]" or "It's too late".
>
> Given that the process is intended to produce a release, there comes a
> time when it is necessary to "draw the line" and cut the release.
>
> Software is rarely perfect.  I'd venture that software of "sufficient
> complexity" is never "perfect."  I'll also ventire that FreeBSD -- much
> as I enjoy using and working with it -- is sufficiently complex as to be
> imperfect.  In fact, it is a work in progress.
>
> This ought not be either surprising or unfamiliar to anyone who has been
> on the planet long enough to recognize the parallels with humans --
> remarkably few humans are perfect, either, after all.  :-}  [And yes, I
> include myself as "imperfect" -- certainly as long as I'm still
> breathing.]
>
Yes, you're right.


>
> > Why is it late? I'm talking about only BUGS (PRs with patches), not new
> > features. Let's users test it! In coming BETA/RC. Where are we in a
> hurry?
> > The BETAs and RCs exists for finding BUGS in coming RELEASE! It's the
> only
> > purpose of it.
> > Of cause pathes would be commited after x.0 RELEASE to x.1 STABLE.
> > Because of this situation most people says "x.0 RELASE isn't for
> > production."
>
> Much depends on the workload in question.  There are folks who run
> CURRENT/head in "production" environments. (I'm not one of them.)

It is very rare.


> I do, however, run stable/8 in a (small) production environment; for that,

I update weekly (unless I have some reason to do otherwise).

Less rare. You have probably a lot of free time =)


> > All the above applies only to the opening of a new STABLE branch, 9 for
> this
> > time.
> > I think we hurry. Imo, BETA/RC period for !NEW! STABLE branch should be
> > longer. Six months, for example.
> > New STABLE branch is very important!
>
> So is opening head up to allow developers to work on and commit new
> code.  As with many things in engineering, there's a cost/benefit
> trade-off.  RE is doing a remarkable job, IMO.
>
Sorry, don't misunderstand me. I'm talking about new STABLE branch.
Maybe we need to change things like "BETA-1(2) is still CURRENT". For
example, let's introduce a new concept "ALPHA" (which will be CURRENT). And
BETAs will be STABLE.


>
> Folks who care sufficiently will find ways to test early enough to be
> useful.
>
=) Thats why we don't have much people in FreeBSD. FreeBSD for users? or
developers?
The big problem is that these conversations are not wanted everyone.
Nobody cares. For example, Vadim Goncharov wrote big mail with description
of various problems in FreeBSD (organozation|system|ports|etc). Big
consersation and all forgotten. Nothing has changed and will not change.


>
> Peace,
> david
> --
> David H. Wolfskill                              david_at_catwhisker.org
> Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil.
>
> See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
>