On Oct 9, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Kris Moore wrote: > On 10/09/2013 12:33, Allan Jude wrote: >> On 2013-10-09 12:23, Freddie Cash wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Freddie Cash <fjwcash_at_gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Julian Elischer <julian_at_freebsd.org>wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 10/9/13 2:35 AM, Freddie Cash wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Alfred Perlstein <bright_at_mu.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You're right on the money, to be honest this is one of the reasons why >>>>>>> I've switched to using OSX as my desktop OS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> zsh, vim, screen by default. and upgrades work. At the end of the day >>>>>>> I'm spending time doing work, not mucking about my workspace to make it >>>>>>> usable for development. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think this was brought up at BSDCan in the discussion about making >>>>>>> FreeBSD a more featured development platform. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking of... has anyone tried PCBSD? >>>>>>> >>>>>> PC-BSD isn't much different from FreeBSD. The installer is GUI and >>>>>> support >>>>>> ZFS, there are some GUI setup tools on first boot for X, there are some >>>>>> GUI >>>>>> tools to select binary drivers for X, and there are working pkgng repos >>>>>> available. >>>>>> >>>>>> I had a lot of issues with PC-BSD 9.0 and 9.1 as I was trying to do >>>>>> things >>>>>> "the FreeBSD way" which broke a lot of things that were done "the PC-BSD >>>>>> way" (aka don't manually edit config files used for booting). >>>>>> >>>>>> Switching to the "rolling-release" (aka PC-BSD 9-STABLE) and moving all >>>>>> my >>>>>> config file edits into <filename>.conf.local fixed my issues. Things >>>>>> have >>>>>> been running smooth, and I finally understand the beauty and simplicity >>>>>> of >>>>>> freebsd-update + pkg. OS gets updated once per month, packages get >>>>>> updated >>>>>> twice per month, no more compiling things from source. It's like using >>>>>> Ubuntu/Debian but with the power and features of FreeBSD. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> When they went to a ZFS-only system, using GRUB, with no alternative, >>>>> then I'm afraid they lost me. >>>>> I want a root filesystem on UFS for reliabailty and simpleness. I can >>>>> debug it's media if needed. >>>>> Before then I really liked it (though ther eis not enough information on >>>>> how it works interneally if you want to use it. >>>>> hopefully that will come.. and I LIKE PBIs FreeBSD should adopt PBIs for >>>>> sure. >>>>> With PBIs you could make even quite base items separately installable. >>>>> versioning problems go away. >>>>> >>>> There's no GRUB in a default install of PC-BSD 9.0, 9.1, or 9.2. Even on >>>> a ZFS-only setup (which is what I run). It's using the FreeBSD loader, >>>> with custom artwork and menus. >>>> >>> Hrm, it seems they've changed things with the 9.2 installer. It does use >>> GRUB2 (ewwww!) for the boot loader, and integrates support for ZFS boot >>> environments (via beadm) into it. :( Shame they didn't use the BE support >>> in the FreeBSD loader for this. Wonder if my 9-STABLE-based PC-BSD install >>> will get "upgraded" to GRUB? >>> >> The reason they went to grub2, is that the way the freebsd loader menus >> work, it loads the kernel before it draws the menu. This means if there >> is a problem with your kernel (probably the most valuable time to have >> boot environments) then the menu never comes up, and you cannot select >> which BE to boot from. Grub doesn't rely on a FreeBSD kernel until after >> you select which BE to boot from. >> >> Kris and I discussed it at length with Devin Teske, and while he has >> demonstrated being able to populate a lower menu with the ZFS datasets, >> I am not sure if the other issue can be resolved. >> > I'm late to the party again ;D (didn't realize the rcs thread had turned BE) Both problems can be solved. The loading of the kernel *after* choosing your boot device is trivial. We've been doing it at $work for *years* (almost a decade?) I can put that in, whenever. Probably at the same time as implementing the live/dynamic BE menus for selecting the root device. > Yea, GRUB is not my first choice, but ATM this is the "cleanest" way we > can do ZFS BE's. However if you don't like ZFS / GRUB, you can always > use regular FreeBSD and just grab our toolchain from > sysutils/pcbsd-utils* in ports or use our PKGNG repo: > > http://wiki.pcbsd.org/index.php/Turn_FreeBSD_into_PC-BSD%C2%AE > > I'm planning on using GRUB to do UEFI booting for 10.0 as well. But when > the FreeBSD loader matures to the point of having support for all these > features, I'll gladly move us back. > I had not been pushing hard on finishing the BE Forth because I knew that it would be a greater value add if we actually had "Boot from ZFS" finished first. Would be easier to test, that is, if I actually had a system booting from ZFS -- which is what Allan, jmg, and myself are hopefully working toward for FreeBSD 10.0-R. (smiles) -- Devin _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 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