Re: man(1) oddity - was: HEADS UP: bzip2(1) compression for manpages...

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:
> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 10:52:30PM +1000, Andy Farkas wrote:
> > On Mon, 19 May 2003, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:
> > > On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 10:21:58PM +1000, Andy Farkas wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Please realise what I've been trying to tell you: there is a difference in
> > > > the user experience when one types `man ppp` on a 4.8 box and when one
> > > > types `man ppp` on a 5.1-B box.  On a 4.8 box the user types `man ppp`,
> > > > gets a message, then waits around 10 seconds for the page to display. On a
> > > > 5.1-B box the user types `man ppp` and DOES NOT GET A MESSAGE BUT HAS TO
> > > > WAIT 10 SECONDS before the page is displayed.

I can not explain the above any better.

> I DO understand what you're trying to tell me, I'm just trying to
> stand you corrected.  ;)

Correct what?  As I see it, when a (normal) user is migrated from a 4.8
box to a 5.1-B box, their man(1) experience is different, so much so that
it causes major "A". (<-- POLA). (<--because previously a normal user got
a message telling them to wait 10 secs, but with -cur no message appears
but you still wait 10 seconds before something happens)

>
> Facts:
>
> 1.  When catpage is not created, the message is not displayed,
>     purposedly, either on 4.x or 5.x, under root or non-root,
>     doesn't matter.  The message is only displayed the first
>     time the catpage is created.
>
> 2.  A catpage is always created for a root user.
>
> 3.  A catpage (for a system manpage) is only created for a
>     non-root user if man(1) is setuid "man".
>
> The facts are true for both 4.x and 5.x.

Arrghh. Why you not believe me when I have proved the user experience is
different between 4.x and 5.x ?????

Facts:

1. A Normal user on a 4.x box types `man ppp` and is instantly told
"Formatting page, please wait..." and then 10 seconds later is presented
with the man page.

2. A Super user on a 4.x box types `man ppp` and is instantly told
"Formatting page, please wait..." and then 10 seconds later is presented
with the man page.


3. A Normal user on a 5.x box types `man ppp` and NOTHING HAPPENS until 10
seconds later when the man page is presented.

4. a Super user on a 5.x box types `man ppp` and is instantly told
"Formatting page, please wait..." and then 10 seconds later is presented
with the man page.


Please study hard 1. and 3.


> If you remove the -DSETREUID bit from src/gnu/usr.bin/man/man/Makefile
> in 4.x, you won't get the message there too.

As a normal user, I *WANT* the message!!!!!

>
> So, to brought the message back in 5.x, we'd have to re-
> enable the setuid code in man(1), which we're not ready
> to yet.  Got it?

Perhaps we are seeing the same thing from different perspectives...

>
> --
> If catpages aren't created, my timings are as follows on
> a 500MHz Celeron box:
>
> $ /usr/bin/time -h man ppp >/dev/null
>         4,20s real              4,07s user              0,09s sys
>
> But if I just type "man ppp", I'm presented with the first
> page of output in about 1 second, so I roughly "don't have
> to wait when the whole manpage gets formatted".  How much
> seconds does it take for some text to appear on a terminal
> attached to your slow box in this case?

I showed you timings before. My experience (as a normal user) differs from
yours. Whenever I type `man $manpage_not_viewed_by_root_before` it does
NOT present me "with the first page of output in about 1 second".

--

 :{ andyf_at_speednet.com.au

        Andy Farkas
    System Administrator
   Speednet Communications
 http://www.speednet.com.au/