Re: The case for FreeBSD

Had to do the top post.... You can read Scott Long's wishlist, which it  
included about the installer.

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-December/043809.html

Cheers,
Mezz

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:48:48 -0600 (CST), <supraexpress_at_globaleyes.net>  
wrote:

> One of the main "stumbling blocks" to using FreeBSD is the installation
> process. I have had "lots of fun" (not!) with NetBSD's  
> line-mode/shell-script
> "installer" and confusing companion installation instructions, in the  
> past; I
> only tried OpenBSD once and don't remember anything about its  
> installation
> process, but I seem to recall that it was similar to NetBSD's; FreeBSD's
> 'DOS-like menu' system is a travisty and IS PROBABLY THE ONE THING THAT  
> TURNS
> OFF MORE PROSPECTIVE FBSD USERS THAN ANYTHING ELSE - I know - I have  
> heard!
>
> Besides, it is REALLY EASY to get lost in the FBSD installer "menu  
> system",
> and not that hard to get caught in a "control loop"; this is not to say  
> that
> the current FBSD installer is a piece of junk - I give kudos to its
> developers, but IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON, and this is the ONE thing that  
> gets
> compared to with Linux "installers" as well as Winchoke, probably more  
> than
> anything else, so if FreeBSD is going to be more appealing to "the  
> masses",
> it needs a completely new installation process (note: I don't really care
> for Solaris' "wizard process" - though it is not TOO bad, and I am not
> trying to advocate a "wizard process" that mirrors others).
>
> I offer the following suggestions for cogitation and realize that some
> of MY choices may not be "the best", but here goes anyhow:
>
> a) redesign the "installer" as a graphical menu system with pull-down
>    options, organized as a linear heirarchy where there is NO possibility
>    of getting lost or of winding up in a "control loop", and the  
> progression
>    is clearly visible; real graphical images of major processes/steps and
>    "systems/major applications" should be provided; THIS installer should
>    begin with THREE, and only THREE options: "user workstation",
>    "server", or "(expert) choice of workstation/server setups"
>
>
> b) design an "installation wizard", in line with contemporary systems,
>    that does nothing but install a "canned workstation environment"  
> based on
>    OpenOffice plus Gnome (or KDE) - that's IT - NOTHING ELSE; Make sure
>    that a more modern graphical menu is used where sample images of Gnome
>    (or KDE) are presented, and do NOT install the entire Gnome (or KDE)
>    "suite"; THIS will appeal to the MILLIONS who have been brainwashed by
>    Redmond (or Apple?) into believing that there is only ONE "computing
>    environment" of any use or interest, AND IT WILL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY
>    WANT, even if it IS FreeBSD; this would be like a pseudo-Mac-X  
> (whatever);
>    this will also appeal to those who don't really care about Unix or
>    FreeBSD as a "server", but really want a "desktop environment"
>   a basic client-only, outbound-only-allowing firewall MUST BE
>    installed and activated (which will require some simple choices about
>    DHCP or assigned, static IP addreses); "ports" could be included as
>    an option, but would be better left to the "expert" wizard
>
>
> c) design an "installation wizard" that installs a "server system with NO
>    desktop installation" which provides some "canned" server "types"  
> (such as
>    "mail server", "web server", ...) that choose the newest versions of
>    server applications (such as Apache2 versus Apache1; PHP5 versus PHP4)
>    as the "defaults", and pull-down menus for changing versions (such as
>    one pull-down for PHP that lists all of the available PHP "main"
>    packages, and possibly another pull-down that lists all of the  
> available
>    PHP "sub-packages"), or altering the application "mix"
>
>
> d) design an "installation menu system" which provides ALL of the choices
>    for ALL of the available functions and services in a well ordered,
>    graphical, linear, hierarchy with sample images/snapshots and  
> pull-down
>    menus to make choices easier to make, without having to go into and  
> out
>    of many levels as the current installer does
>
>
> It would probably help if a "special design team" (project) were created  
> for
> this, with calls to anyone/everyone to join in, unless - of course - that
> there just so happens to be a group of talented people who WANT to do  
> all of
> this on their own ;)
>
>
> If some truly talented and adventurous people were to look at the  
> installation
> process as an adventure in graphical layers where mousing over a box or  
> image
> would open up a new sub-layer (to the side, or even BETTER, to wherever  
> the
> user places their mouse or clicks on the background, or shouts at the  
> monitor
> (we REALLY need to get some of the Hitchhiker's Guide into this  
> process!),
> where small graphical images of options or related packages could be  
> displayed
> so that the "installer" acted like a well designed "flowing image overlay
> system", THEN the FreeBSD installation process would be dynamite -  
> literally!
>
> There are "circular menus" (ala one Firebird extension), layered  
> pie-chart
> diagrams of the filesystem with size information (such as KDE's  
> "filelight")
> where mousing over one of the concentric circles pops up an "info box",  
> while
> clicking on one of them traverses down the filesystem path and creates a  
> new
> set of concentric circles of lower level directories, and the  
> exhilarating
> 3D-Desktop as examples of unique, "futuristic", artistic, free flowing
> graphical "systems" that could lead to interesting ideas for the above
> mentioned "graphical installation system".
>
> Granted, there are MANY, MANY issues to be worked out, and some of these
> suggestions will have to be modified - of course. There might even need  
> to
> be a two-tiered system where the first tier could be a basic graphical
> system that doesn't need special graphics cards to perform, and the  
> second
> tier that could install X, or something close enough, and then provide  
> the
> full blown "graphical installation" system. If there are enough drivers
> available to the "installation system" to determine enough about a system
> "monitor", then hopefully this could be an automated facility (eg;  
> install
> a minimal X-system with just enough to do the necessary graphics, and  
> later
> install the entire X-system where needed).
>
> OK - let the "flame wars" begin. Whatever comes out of this, the FreeBSD
> "installer" badly needs a facelift.
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-- 
mezz7_at_cox.net  -  mezz_at_FreeBSD.org
FreeBSD GNOME Team
http://www.FreeBSD.org/gnome/  -  gnome_at_FreeBSD.org