Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.

On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 11:30, Dima Pasechnik <dimpase+freebsd_at_gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Anyway, as someone
> who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
> morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
> neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother)

You're conflating freedom of expression with wanton action of agression


> I absolutely do
> not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
> as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .

Luckily most societies have more wisdom than you and elect to have
free and open discussion and chose to not oppress.


> Because they always incite violence.

That is a gross overgeneralisation with absolutely zero foundation. If
you say that PHK's expression was hate towards one specific group, and
you assert that that "always" incites violence, what violence followed
PHK's expression? Either show demonstrable violence or your statement
falls flat on its face.


> And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
> written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany).

I lived in the USSR, my parents lived in the USSR, my grandparents
lived in the USSR and I don't recall anything of the sort, nor do I
recall a huge jewish population of Odessa, for example, even bringing
this up as an issue during Perestroyka or post break up. Or do you
mean that the USSR passports identified *ethnicity* of the bearer,
like Pole, Ukrainian, Uzbek, Moldav, Jew?..  I think you're taking
things hugely out of context and trying to make something out of
nothing, because if inserting one's ethnicity into a passport or any
state-issued ID is "an act of hate" as you seem to assert, then my UK
driving licence, and by implication the UK Government, is full of
"hate speech"!



> Under this
> commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
> twitter, is full-blown racism, and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
> for this - while he does not do it in
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/

I love when people find a text, then select words from it choosing to
omit the rest! Here's how freedom of expression works: A makes a
reasoned expression of opinion/view. B might not like the conclusion
or premise. Any person of reasonably intelligence can (a) ignore A
altogether; (b) engage in a discussion with A (quite frankly PKH's
expression is fully argued, as in he gives his reasons) to change his
mind by counter-arguments; a person without any argument usually
claims some nonsense to get some liberal snowflakes on their side and
try to silence the different view using "megaphone diplomacy."

For what it's worth, I actually read all the statements made by PHK
and there is no incitement of violence or anything of the sort, all he
said was X because of Y. I think his reasoning is a bit stretched and
if one were really interested in what he was saying instead of
obsessively crucifying him, one could change his mind. Hint: that's
the whole premise of "freedom of expression"---someone says something
unpalatable, you engage, you could change their mind, they could
change your mind, or you could agree to disagree... Yet we seem to be
going the way of Romans at best, and some already lining up for a
tameshigiri.


> While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
> not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
> being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
> the project.

Perhaps you could show concrete examples of such "hate" from that
specific domain, I seem to struggle to find any.


> Let me point few things in the  latter:
>
> * there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
> called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
> making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
>
> * Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
> policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings are    responsible for
> policies of Scandinavian states of today.

Oh look, you're perfectly capable of engaging in a reasoned argument
(and these two are a number of reasons why I though his reasoning was
"a bit stretched")! You make good and valid points, so engage, and
change his mind!


-- 
Igor M.